"Garrett "cannot deny that Ephesians 5: 14 seems to" apply to those already alive? Jason obviously cannot read plain English. I not only can deny it, I did deny it. I showed that to be "among the dead" meant that one was dead, and yet Jason failed to even respond to this argument!
What I was saying is that Jason needs to show another passage where the call to rise from among the dead showed that those called are alive among the dead. The intent was to say this: if Eph. 5: 14 is questionable, then find another passage where rising from among the dead refers to the living coming out from among the dead. The call to find another passage was not to question that Eph. 5: 14 was addressed to the sleeping dead. Is it not a fact that every other passage that speaks of people rising "out from among the dead" shows that the people rising were themselves dead? That is the point! How could you miss it brother? Can you give us clear proof that those among the dead are not dead? This argument destroys Jason's view. All the other NT passages that speak of people among the dead shows that they are dead."
This point was already refuted by my post to which he is responding. It would be different if Paul did not use katheudo in the same context in 1 Thessalonians 5:5,6, and 10. How can there be doubt of Paul's usage when it is observed in another passage? Katheudo is never used in the New Testament to refer to the spiritual dead, but it is used in the same metaphorical sense of Ephesians 5:14 in 1 Thessalonians 5:6.
As Gill agrees, 1 Thessalonians 5:5-8 refers to the same moral slovenliness and "works of darkness" as Romans 13:11-14 that must be cast off. I already asserted this in my post to which Brother Garrett responded. But Brother Garrett failed to respond to any of these facts; he'd rather make believe that he still has a leg to stand on in this passage.
How can Brother Garrett fail to see the darkness in which the believer can participate in these texts as being the same sense of "among the dead" of Ephesians 5:14, and, on top of this, to be the same Pauline usage of katheudo?! The word usage alone provides the proof! Or the sense in which David's sins as pertaining to Bathsheba were "works of darkness", and that placed him "among the dead" (consistent with Psalms 88:5) for a time - seemingly cut off from the joy of his salvation?
Brother Garrett stated about Psalms 88:5:
"On this verse Dr. Gill wrote:
"...he looked upon himself as a dead man, as one belonging to the state of the dead..."
Further, the context defines clearly what it means to be "among the dead." It is to "lie in the grave" and to be "cut off." David is not looking upon himself as alive among the dead, but looking upon himself as dead among the dead!"
What is Brother Garrett trying to say here? That the author of this Psalm was unregenerate at the time? What does verse 1 say? "O Lord God OF MY SALVATION, I have cried day and night before thee", and verse 14, "Lord, why CASTEST thou OFF my soul? Why HIDEST thou thy face FROM me?" Verse 16 as well speaks of being "cut off"; this and all of the capitalized words clearly presuppose that the author has been cut off and become "dead" to fellowship with God, not life.
Talk about perverting Scripture. The fact is, it is plain from the entire context of this Psalm, that the author is clearly not physically or spiritually dead, and the sense in which he looks upon himself as "among the dead" is in terms of being cut off from the fellowship of God. Manifestly, one cannot "look upon himself as belonging to the state of the dead" without being alive. I cannot imagine why Brother Garrett resists the force of the context of this Psalm. Gill did not state that the man WAS dead, but that he 'looked upon himself as'; bit of a difference there.
Brother Garrett stated:
"The point is that the bible writers often used the word "sleep" in reference to "dead" and sometimes in the same context, whether the word for the dead is apothnēskō or nekros."
No, that is not the point. The bible writers never used katheudo to refer to spiritual death. It was used to refer euphemistically to physical death only. Brother Garrett is unreasonable to not view this word as Paul used it clearly in 1 Thess. 5:6, unless he wants to say that katheudo in Ephes. 5:14 refers euphemistically to physical death? But how would that make sense, the Christians he is addressing are not physically dead in any sense, neither are those they are commanded not to be partakers with in verse 7.
Brother Garrett stated:
"The question to be decided is whether Paul uses the word "sleep" in Eph. 5: 14 in the sense of "dead," and the context makes this clear, since those who are called to awake are "among the dead," and never is "among the dead" applied to the living! Address that argument brother Jason and quit dancing all around it!"
I have already addressed this baseless accusation. My post to which Brother Garrett responded, the full comments of which he could not answer, refuted his position. Which is clearer, Paul's usage of the word in the same context in 1 Thess. 5:6, or Brother Garrett's unwillingness to consider that there is any sense in which believers can be "among the dead"? The sense and context in which believers can be "among the dead" by "works of darkness" is already CLEARLY ESTABLISHED in Rom. 13:11-14 and 1 Thess. 5:5,6 and 10.
Hardshell Stephen Garrett proves he's as stubborn as he thinks any Primitive Baptist is. I guess you can drop the doctrine and still be a "hardshell".
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